| By Joseph Ottinger | Article Rating: |
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| June 17, 2003 12:00 AM EDT | Reads: |
17,841 |
(June 17, 2003) - Lately Sun and The JBoss Group have been rather publicly sparring over the use of the J2EE brand, culminating in quite a bit of heat (and little light) in the press and in the blogosphere. It's been something I've watched for a while, because this kind of schism can be very bad for Java, and right now, Java's my bread and butter. I've been spending some time trying to figure out what the root causes are, and how to potentially fix things.I've not gotten very far. However, I think I understand more of the reasoning behind both sides: it's a culture conflict, between two very different profit models.
The issue isn't profit itself: it's survival for both entities. Sun has regular employees and stockholders to support via products and support (and license models). As a commercial company, Sun simply has to leverage everything they can. Anything else would result in a bunch of hackers lounging around a coffee table (ironically enough, eh?) reminiscing about the good old days when Sun used to exist. The JBoss Group, similarly, has employees to support and encourage. It, too, needs to leverage everything at its disposal to make itself worth spending money on, except it doesn't have a core product, per se, besides support. Thus, it has to make its product worth enough such that clients need support.
There's nothing wrong with either model. However, put together, there's a huge culture war, because the licensing model cuts the support model off at the knees.
Sun makes money from J2EE in four primary ways that I know of, in no particular order:
1. Yearly licenses to use the brand (and receive the CTK). The licenses are based, in part, on a percentage of a vendor's J2EE sales.
2. Sales of products such as SunONE that use the J2EE brand within Sun.
3. Consultant-based support of J2EE technologies.
4. Hardware sales based on application server vendor recommendations (which are not very germane to this topic.)
While I'm certainly not directly involved, my impression is that the JBoss Group has asked Sun for a license based on the brand itself, which is normally a fairly hefty amount. The reasoning, of course, is that JBoss is an open source project, with deployable units free for download, and thus has no sales to represent it. (This sounds like some Microsoft FUD from a few years ago: MS said that Windows outsold Linux by an amazing amount, leaving out the fact that Linux was installable without a recorded sale.) As JBoss, the application server, has no product sales to generate revenue, and has no real owner (although the name is trademarked by Marc Fleury), the project simply does not have the fee structure required to support the J2EE brand. The JBoss Group, as I understand it, is acting as a proxy for the application server in this case to acquire the brand, much as UNIFIX acted as a proxy for Linux in order to test POSIX compliance.
Sun's business model (the part of it addressed here) is based on sales of J2EE products, and license fees generated from those sales. Thus, Sun needs to encourage vendors to sell application servers for as much money as the market will bear, to enhance its license fees. Market competition and the difficulty required to support the brand help to lower the license fee, but the brand identification, in a perfect world, carries with it high customer confidence in the J2EE name.
Sun is apparently willing to work with The JBoss Group on the license fee, but it's normally a yearly fee based on product sales… and JBoss as a product has no sales. If Sun grants JBoss a license, then the royalty fee becomes incredibly unfair to commercial vendors who do base their profits on product sales, effectively cutting off J2EE's profit model in perpetuity. This would force the entire industry into JBoss' profit model, one based solely on support. From Sun's perspective, The JBoss Group is asking Sun to commit suicide. Understandably, Sun is resisting the urge.
The JBoss Group, on the other hand, can't adapt legitimately to Sun's business model. Their business model is predicated on support of a product easily acquired by customers; if JBoss itself were not free, the support model wouldn't work as well. In addition, it wouldn't be as much fun, because they're in an admirable position of having great freedom; supporting a paid-for product has different requirements than support for an open source product. For them, JBoss needs the J2EE brand (sort of) because it's another thing that attracts customers, but purchasing the J2EE brand makes demands on them that their business model does not (and should not) support.
The open nature of JBoss' source, also, factors into branding. If the JBoss Group owns the license and donates it to the JBoss project (which is not a legal entity, to my knowledge), the CTK would have to remain in the ownership of the JBoss Group, who would also have to remain responsible for passing it. The CTK's importance in all this cannot be understated. It defines what a J2EE server must be able to do, and under which circumstances. This is a valuable investment, one that all of the J2EE-branded vendors have purchased; giving it to one representative of a given application server would be highly unfair to the other vendors, and would undercut Sun's profit model drastically. In addition, it grants ownership to The JBoss Group. This may be less of a barrier than it seems: JBoss, like most open source projects, has a manager of sorts controlling what goes in and what does not - but this definitely would center power in the hands of the CTK owners, as they'd be able to refuse patches based on the CTK, but wouldn't be able to hand the complete test back to a contributing developer.
The conflict, then, exists because Sun has different mechanisms of generating profit than the JBoss Group does. Sun sells products and licenses. The JBoss Group sells services based on products that need the licenses, needing the J2EE brand in order to identify itself to its core users (despite a declaration earlier this year from them that they "don't need J2EE"), and Sun can't give it to them in such a way that both groups can coexist ideally. At best, it would always be an uneasy truce, and neither side has shown itself comfortable with that.
Published June 17, 2003 Reads 17,841
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More Stories By Joseph Ottinger
Joseph Ottinger, formerly editor-in-chief of JDJ (2003-4), is a consultant with Fusion Alliance in Indianapolis and is one of the contributors to the OpenSymphony project.
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heartburn 07/09/03 11:59:00 PM EDT | |||
I wonder if Sun has considered making J2EE (and Java for that matter) open source and simply charging for support. Maybe they have more to learn from JBoss than they realize. |
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Anurag Gupta 06/23/03 06:56:00 PM EDT | |||
Razzy is absolutely correct on the future of Open Source products. Only the supported products (whether by big name vendors or huge orgs like JBoss) would survive. And support would COST, it isn't and won't be free. So Open Source would "morph" into a "Low Cost Supported Open Source". Of course, some individuals and (possibly) small organizations may continue using "un-supported Open Source" software. But that percentage would be very small compared to the overall numbers. Die-hard fans of Open Source will continue to cite such instances, refuting the very fact that there are no free lunches. |
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Winston Rast 06/20/03 01:03:00 PM EDT | |||
How about starting to charge $1 per download? Then it's virtually free and Sun still gets paid. |
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Rizzy 06/20/03 12:59:00 PM EDT | |||
The Open Source Community may or may not be fine and dandy, but sun is justified in its stance to charge for the J2EE brand as percentage of revenue - and since JBoss' revenue is support fees, Sun should charge a %age of that fee. And something else about Open Source - its going to die and go away as a useful model. Linux is only adopted by corporations if its supported by a big name like Redhat and JBoss is adopted because of the muscle of the JBoss group. Do not open source developers have to eat? don't they need a place to live? don't they need clothes to wear (ok some of them sit and code all night in their bithday suit)? The point I am trying to make is that open source initiatives at least in this U S of A were done by programmers who were earning big fat paychecks from their employers and instead of contributing to their employer they were spending their time and energy on creating and fixing open source software. To me that is sheer hyporcrisy. Enough said. |
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James McGovern 06/20/03 11:02:00 AM EDT | |||
Sun should focus on making profits from selling its products into corporations. Trying to make money off certification is a losing battle that any junior accountant will figure out in ten minutes. If Sun doesn't certify JBoss, they not only lose credibility but will have an effect on marketshare of current offerings. |
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Matt H. 06/20/03 08:06:00 AM EDT | |||
The JBoss business model is somewhat of a novel concept. But then, so was Sun's in giving away a robust language like Java. But as novel and noble as a company may want to be.. eventually it must recoup its investment and make a profit. Sun is trying to do it through application vendors and JBoss is trying to do it by providing support to its own 'customers'. To me, they both seem shaky! Sun is vulnerable to high performance open source code. As for JBoss, they must walk a tight rope between distributing a product that people want, facilitated by it being free, but requires (for some) support which isn't free. I can't help but think that as the business of JBoss consulting matures and the need for revenue inevitably increases, the product will 'coincidentaly' require an increasing amount of support. In the meantime, JBoss should respect the fact that Sun has its business model as they have theirs and that each model plays no small part in their respective survival. As a Java developer, I want them both around for a long time. |
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James Wood 06/20/03 07:59:00 AM EDT | |||
To me, the resolution of issues like this stand to shape the face of software development in the coming future. As much as I am a fan of open source software, I think that we are beginning to see some of the problems associated with it as projects get bigger and bigger. JBoss and Sun are in a similar situation to me in that they both offer software that is being widely used in the industry for free. As much as I like reaping the benefits of this, I can see how Sun wants to protect it's interests since it represents their livelihood in the market. As a developer, I pull for both parties, but think that something will ultimately have to give. If I put the amount of effort that these two entities have into a product, I would expect to get paid for it. It is hypocritical of me to chastise either company when I am the one making money off their products and services. |
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Jakob Jenkov 06/20/03 07:13:00 AM EDT | |||
That way, any company doing J2EE development had to pay Sun to be allowed to do J2EE consulting. Imagine if Microsoft tried to bill everyone doing development for their products. While in fact, they try to do the opposite, make the products very cheap to developers. |
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Saad Jabrane 06/20/03 06:06:00 AM EDT | |||
Thank you for this "politically correct" analysis. But I believe it is much deeper than that. |
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bax 06/20/03 05:07:00 AM EDT | |||
IMHO this discussion points out the transition from getting profit out of the _manufacturing_ efforts of software toward making the profit out of the help efforts which we could provide to the customer for really effectivly (this is in general not the case at this time, we are now only able to make some things possible - far from making them happen better) _using_ them. Similarities to the good old thelephone comes to my mind. JBoss is definetely ahead of time in this ... |
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Bryan 06/20/03 12:23:00 AM EDT | |||
So how many people have actually taken their copy of Weblogic and verified that it passed the J2EE tests? How many people have actually even deployed their application to a different application server than they originally developed it on? I understand that some people develop on JBoss and then deploy on Weblogic or some other flavor of app-server, but come on this is much-to-do-about-nothing. I have written applications on Weblogic, IPlanet, and JBoss. Frankly I will chose JBoss any day because I don't have to turn around and tell my customer to spend a fortune on licensing (oh yeah and it works, IPlanet doesn't). |
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N.Balasubramaniam 06/19/03 11:00:00 PM EDT | |||
Sun and JBoss must sit and discuss this issue threadbare. After all, both of them are advocates of the Open source movement. |
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Phil 06/19/03 06:38:00 PM EDT | |||
All right...I'll confess right now, I am an old guy. I was around when OSI was going to be the leading network and commercial products like "DECnet" were all the range. What we saw was explosive adoption of TCP/IP because it was an open standard mediated by the IETF. Nobody owned it. Time and time again history repeats itself. I notice that more recently, OpenGroup have tried to make success out of the LDAP2000 brand. Yet, vendors find it hard to pay serious money just to certify a product for an OpenGroup brand when there is already an LDAP standard chuck full of RFC specifications. I am a HUGE fan of Java. Java has to be one of the most successful proprietary standards ever achieved. This has to be in part because Sun has let it blossom by keeping it next to free. I fear the JBoss arguement only highlights the same issue again. Why pay for a branding if it costs you more money than it brings. All JBoss has to say is they are J2EE compatible and that is that (though I'll leave the lawyers to correct me and clarify of course). Standards need to be free and open. Certification costs money, but then, that is really up to the open market to decide how important that is. |
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Philip 06/19/03 06:32:00 PM EDT | |||
Joseph, you did a great job of demonstrating how both parties arrived at an impasse. Perhaps a third option can be found. Would it be feasible for Sun to create a second brand, such as OSJ2EE, that could be the basis for a middle ground? An OSJ2EE brand might not have as much panache for customers that don't buy into the OS model anyway (and probably wouldn't even with a full fledged J2EE stamp). It also would not threaten to dilute the mother J2EE brand. And it might be better than nothing from JBoss' perspective. |
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Rich F. 06/19/03 06:27:00 PM EDT | |||
This issue is so overblown. It does not really warrant discussion. |
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06/19/03 06:17:00 PM EDT | |||
How about a project to create an open J2EE test suite? As someone who makes software buying decisions, I would be more inclined to give credence to an open test suite than to a closed test suite like the CTK. While this would be bad for Sun, it would be excellent for J2EE. The test suite could also cover performance benchmarking in addition to compliance issues. The J2EE specification itself is open. All that is required is an effort to translate that into an implementation in code. Of course, that may be non-trivial to say the least, and I don't have the time to do it (sigh). |
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Peter B 06/19/03 05:39:00 PM EDT | |||
I'm curious just how much the certification costs anyway. Are the costs so astronomical? Is the certification process the only way Sun can make a buck off the back of J2EE? RimuHosting - JBoss Hosting |
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Alistair 06/19/03 05:08:00 PM EDT | |||
I think the answer to the Sun/JBoss problems is a little deeper than that of royalties... it stems from the incompatabilities of open source and Sun's SCSL license. To license J2EE a vendor needs to sign the SCSL license. This license says many things. One of them is that code, code modifications, test results, etc., may not be shared with non-licensees. This means that once the JBoss group (assuming they can establish controlling ownership over open source code and make such a committment) signs the SCSL license they cannot share anything under the J2EE definition with the open source community. This is the very fact that essentially closed down Lutris which managed a successful open source application server called Enhydra which attempted to grow into a licensed J2EE platform. Ultimately they did sign SCSL and the open source project was abandoned in favor of a closed source alternative. See the mail archies at http://enhydra.enhydra.org/project/mailingLists/enhydra/200109/msg00044.... |
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Scott 06/19/03 04:55:00 PM EDT | |||
Sun should just charge a percentage of revenue. Regardless of whether comapines that make their revenue via product sales or support Sun can get a piece. Perhaps the percentage could be a sliding scale based on overall revenue. JBoss is good for J2EE and Sun. It gives people a low cost way to enter the java market. Later, if things work out, people can switch to a higher performing J2EE Engine. I think a good question is why is JBoss's product, IBM's product, and Weblogic's product all so much superior to Sun's internal J2EE offering. You would think Sun would have one of the premiere J2EE offerings. If this was the case, I don't think Sun would be worrying about JBoss. |
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Adam 06/19/03 04:03:00 PM EDT | |||
It seems to me that the easiest solution would be to take Sun's existing model and make an exception, where every site that buys JBOSS support is counted as a site that 'purchased JBOSS' and have Sun take a cut of the consulting/support revenue. There's more money in that than gross product sales anyway. |
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Ivan 06/18/03 06:14:00 PM EDT | |||
maybe what needs to happen is to have an independent third-party certify that an app server is "J2EE Compliant", like the "UL" sticker on electrical devices. The third-party could buy the CTK from Sun, and charge some nominal amount for its certification (something that JBOSS could afford). Barring that, maybe a "I ran my own tests and i certify that i'm compliant" sticker is all that is required. |
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